
The two scenes you
recall from that weekend are both vivid and sensual. In the first of these you
describe playing in the pool with Ava as a ‘baptism, an initiation into
something else’. Can you explain?
I was trying to capture the whole complex business of
initiation into womanhood. Water is,
symbolically speaking, feminine. Hence
the pool. Unlike older, more
traditional cultures, ours has a paucity of rituals, and those we do have tend
to be idiosyncratic. In orthodox Jewish
culture, for example, the one that shaped my grandmother and great-grandmother,
they had the mikvah – the ritual bath a woman submerged herself in after each
menstruation, before her wedding and after childbirth. I had experienced nothing remotely like that
but, still, somewhere in my unconscious those connections were either being
made at the time or at the time of writing.
Curious that I used the word ‘baptism’ – which only goes to show how far removed I am from those strictly orthodox Jewish traditions. In any case, it’s all about sexuality really.
Then back in the
hotel you see Ava – the coveted movie star – nude. And what strikes you is how
‘very disappointing’ it is, how she is essentially no different to your mother.
This moment had a profound effect on your evolving sense of what it meant to be
a woman. How so?
You have to think back to a time when a girl hardly ever saw
anyone, even in her own family, in the nude. That’s what it was like in America
in the 1940s and 50s, even in a place like Hollywood. You never saw a cleavage and the shortest
skirts ended just below the knee. But
because of this very suppression we children were terribly curious. And smutty, I guess. That said, I still don’t know quite how to
answer the question. Possibly one aspect
of it was that, contrary to today’s specifications, I didn’t find Ava’s
youthful breasts particularly beautiful.
In fact they seemed strange because they weren’t like either my mother’s
or stepmother’s, which were those of maturer women. Later, in the 50s, girls like me just wanted
to be curvy. And breasts were
everything. That’s why we had those bras
that shaped them like torpedos. But I suppose
the main thing to consider is that becoming a woman was, probably still is,
something we had to think about. It was a social construct, it wasn’t
something that came ‘naturally’. Still
isn’t, when you take all the cosmetic surgery into account. And remember, I was revisiting this event
many, many years later. Now I don’t give
a damn what breasts are supposed to look like.
I am a woman, that’s who I am, and would be even if I didn’t have
them.
In your essay you
write that every girl needs ‘a woman who will lead her into the adult world, a
kind of female Virgil. But Ava was more than that, and less.’ Can you elaborate?
Well, that’s what I’d heard said and it was only when I was
writing the essay that it came to me that it might be true. Mother and daughter relationships are
complicated, too complicated often. I
don’t think a mother can really be a friend to her daughter; a mother is a
mother, and she’s unique. But an aunt is
an older relative who can support a girl on her journey to adulthood without
many strings attached. My own daughter
is an aunt to one of my granddaughters in just this way. As for Ava, by dint of her fame I guess she
was more than that; even though my sisters and I called her Aunt Ava, as
children did those days, we were of course in awe of her. Movie actors were truly stars then, larger
than life to other adults let alone children; and different from the female
celebrities we have today. They were goddesses
- like the Venus of the title and the role Ava played in the movie of the same
name. Think of Marilyn Monroe and then think of Cate Blanchett. Maybe not as rich or savvy or in control
because of the studios’ grip on them, but by the same token the studios made women
like Ava stars. But that time with her
in the pool she was less than that, less than even an aunt. More like a sister, more of a kid
herself. ‘Down to earth’ is the term for
it – the best I can think of. And funny,
that is what happens in the movie.
You moved from
Hollywood to Sydney at the age of 19, and then to Canberra in 1968 where you
worked as a journalist before becoming the inaugural head of the Women’s
Affairs Section of the prime minister department for the Whitlam government.
What was that time like, both in political and literary circles?
I should say here that I moved from Los Angeles, not
Hollywood. There’s a difference, though
they do overlap. The Los Angeles part is
every bit as rich as the Hollywood part and had just as great an influence on
me - and on my writing. It has coloured
my responses to literature and music and, in a way, my fascination with Sydney,
which is some respects very like Los Angeles. I was born in Chicago and lived in New York as
well. So for 28 years all told I’ve
lived in big cities, where I’ve felt spiritually at home. But then there was Canberra, much smaller,
and appreciably smaller when I lived there than it is now, and oddly enough
those years in Canberra were undoubtedly the most interesting, the most
exciting years of my life.
Before I became a public service journalist I worked in
publishing and taught professional writing at what was then the Canberra
College of Advanced Education, now the University of Canberra. In 1973 I worked on the labour minister’s
staff and a year later went to prime minister’s. The section was set up initially to help
Elizabeth Reid who was Whitlam’s women’s adviser deal with the huge backlog of
correspondence that built up after she asked the women of Australia to write to
her about their problems. And boy, did
they take her at her word! She ended up
getting more correspondence than any government minister except Whitlam
himself. Eventually the section took on
a substantial policy role, particularly in relation to child care, but we also
had our fingers in many other policy pies.
It was a very exciting time to be in the public service, a period of
long-lasting, long-awaited reform but also political crisis. We hung on through some difficult challenges,
most notably the dismissal itself, in order to preserve what had been achieved,
and throughout it all the section grew into a branch and then into an office –
higher in status but presaging its ousting from prime minister’s. I resigned then to bring this significant but
essentially bureaucratic move to public notice.
An additional, personal reason was my desire to devote myself, once and
for all, to writing.
I really didn’t know the literary scene at all and sometimes
thought of this mad career change so late in the day as comparable to Zelda
Fitzgerald’s announcing she was bent on becoming a ballerina. It was as exhilarating and at the same time
as hopeless, I thought, as that. None of
my friends were writers, all my associates were in the women’s movement or in
government, and I had recurring dreams about their disapproval. Deep down, I saw it as ‘indulging’
myself. But I couldn’t help it. It was also quite scary. Few of the supports
writers have now were available then, and what was there I knew next to nothing
about.
In the eighties and nineties you were part of Canberra’s
Seven Writers group. Having spoken to fellow members Marion Halligan and
Dorothy Johnston about their experiences, I’m interested to know what the group
meant to you.
Dorothy Johnston came to Canberra around the time I quit
prime minister’s. She heard about me
through a mutual friend and got in touch.
It was a truly serendipitous meeting, a life-changing one for me. She heard about Margaret Barbalet in much the
same way and gradually the three of us got together. Dorothy was the prime mover in this, and it
was wonderful to be around someone so dedicated, so positive that something as
exhilarating as writing was an authentically important thing to do. It amazes me now to recall that I never dreamt
it could or would become a career for me. Nor did I ever imagine that my
connection with Seven Writers would come to be better known and possibly more
valued than my government work.
After the three of us got together Dorothy put an ad in the
Canberra Times and the first tentative groupings were formed. A few months later these coalesced to five of
us, Dorothy and Margaret and me, Brenda Walker, who was doing a PhD at ANU, and
a woman named Elizabeth Toombs. When
Brenda left for Western Australia and Elizabeth to Wales, then Singapore, we
were down to the three of us again.
That’s when Marian Eldridge, Suzanne Edgar and Marion Halligan joined and, soon after,
Dorothy Horsfield. This was in the
mid-80s. The group remained as it was
until 1998 when I left for Canada.
Marian Eldridge had died two years earlier and that kind of kicked the
stuffing out of us. We were never quite
the same again.
Would I have persisted without the group? I’m not sure.
It certainly would have been lonelier and I did learn a lot about the
writing craft. But then, as an artist of
any kind, you’re always learning. I’ve
never had strong opinions about what is acceptable or not; I’ve always been
excited by possibilities, when someone makes an imaginative leap, taking a new
direction or revitalising something. Yet I do believe that apart from being
subjective there’s an intuitive response to genuine art, something that Dorothy
herself called ‘authenticity’. Doesn’t
matter a hoot if it’s fashionable.
That’s also why I’m ambivalent about creative writing degrees. Reading D.T. Max’s recent biography of David
Foster Wallace has reinforced my suspicion that orthodoxies are too often
created by these courses and too often ruthlessly entrenched. But informal groups may be different. You’re more inclined to work against each other rather than aiming to
please. To crystallise these thoughts a
bit better, being in the group meant my work was taken seriously by friendly
rivals. That’s what we were, friendly
rivals, and we gave each other something no one else could give us, especially
as women, especially for that time.
How did your years in
Canberra shape your writing?
Utterly. For years I
fiddled, even as a young mother in Sydney, but Canberra galvanised me. My sisters in Seven Writers and others have
spoken of the physical environment, the quality of the light, the resources
available to us, the ability to get around, and, above all I suppose, the kind
of tabula rasa , so to speak, that it offered.
For me it was West Block. Plain
and simple. The minute I stepped into
that building my fingers began twitching.
It was Canberra, it was Australia.
It was the embodiment of my adopted nation’s history. And the fact that it wasn’t appreciated as
such only served to prod me further.
When federal parliament came to Canberra in 1927 West Block housed the
public service – all of it. I still get
goose pimples thinking of that. So it
was more to me than showing that Canberra was a human place, different but
essentially the same as other places, filled with the ordinary passions of
ordinary mortals leading their ordinary lives.
Yes, there was that. But it was
also that history, which is extraordinary.
I’ve recently been in touch with Dave Headon to remind him that
Canberra’s historical moments are threaded all through West Block, the history is the glue that holds all the separate
stories, or chapters, together. Lady
Denman’s cigarette case is there, the one that held the name she would read out
at the naming ceremony, only I gave it to Jonathan Roe, the treasury
economist. George Harland’s daughter
speaks of the corroborees, where the tribes gathered to feast on the bogong
moths; and she tells him as well that the city is heart-shaped. And it is, you know; if you look at a map,
it’s shaped like a heart. I could go
on.
Thirty years ago (West
Block was published in November 1983) it wasn’t quite respectable to have a
novel in stories, or a discontinuous narrative as Moorhouse called it, but it’s
a form that’s had its attraction for me, the prism-like structure casting its rotating
light on each of the characters, on each of their separate stories, all making
up the one. Is it a novel or is it a
collection of stories, people asked. I
don’t think it’s even an issue today.
Given that you are
both a writer and a painter, how do these two art forms influence each other?
Or are they quite separate from each other?
Of course they’re intertwined. But it hasn’t been an easy relationship. For quite a while I agonised over the fact
that the time I spent painting was time taken away from writing. I sensed the same disapproval from my writer
friends that I’d felt from my politico-academic-public service friends when I
started writing. And I kept insisting to
myself that painting was only a hobby and that I was entitled to have a hobby
just like everyone else had, now that my children were grown and I had the time
to have one. But the point was it wasn’t
acting like a hobby. It was
misbehaving. It was demanding. It was as insistent as the writing was. They both are, and it can be bloody
exhausting. And I wasn’t getting any
younger and none of it was making me much money. And then I said, the hell with it, I am who I
am and I’m going to have to live with it.
And enjoy it. That’s been the
hardest part, all through my life, not feeling guilty about enjoying myself. (It comes in the Jewish package – along, thank
god, with the laughs. )
Do my art forms feed each other? Definitely.
Two of my biggest paintings are of swimming pools. This is because of the amazing view from the
windows of our Sydney flat. Towards the
east we see North Harbour, Manly, and the ocean beyond. But turning northwards we look down onto
swimming pools, one after another, like a sparkling chain of turquoise flung
over the fences and into the suburban yards.
And it reminded me of John Cheever’s story ‘The Swimmer’ in which Neddy
Merrill crosses his neighbourhood by swimming in one pool after the other,
swimming as he does into the mistakes of his past. It’s a classic rendition, maybe the classic
rendition, of suburban failure and loneliness, and was made into a fine movie
with Burt Lancaster in the role of Neddy, arguably one of his best. So I started painting these scenes and two
big ones on show at the reading came out of this process. The first I did indeed call ‘The Swimmer’ but
the second, painted a few years later, morphed into something else. I now belong to an artists’ studio not far
from the flat and not dissimilar from Seven Writers in that it’s made up of
women and we’re all very close and supportive of each other, even though
there’s that implicit, unavoidable sense of rivalry, especially among the
painters. But I share my own studio
space with a young Mexican filmmaker who observed when I was working on the
second painting that it looked just like Cuernavaca where her grandmother lived
and she spent her childhood vacations.
So there it was, ‘Cuernavaca’. But come to think of it, it could have been
that first pool – the one I swam in with Ava.
At the Woven Words event we’ve asked you to
combine literature with a different art form by selecting two musical compositions to bookend a reading of ‘One
Touch of Venus’. How did you go about selecting these works? Can you take us
through your thinking process?
I can’t tell you how much delight I had in
choosing the music for the reading.
Thanks to the net, I was able to watch One Touch of Venus online.
And because of this, I hit on something that over the years I had
completely forgotten – that one of the most beautiful songs ever written was
part of the sound track. The movie,
which came out in 1948, was originally a 1943 Broadway musical with Mary Martin
in the Venus role, and Martin was the first to sing it. The music was Kurt Weill’s and the lyrics
were by Ogden Nash, a favourite poet of my childhood, the one who wrote
hilarious things like ‘hand me down my rusty hatchet, someone murmured do not
scratch it’ and ‘a wonderful bird is the pelican, his beak can hold more than
my belly can’. But he was more than a
nonsense poet and for the opening of this song he drew on a line of Don Pedro’s
from Much Ado About Nothing. ‘Speak Low’ has been sung by everyone from
Billy Holiday and Frank Sinatra to Tony Bennett and Nora Jones. It is truly a classic. Ever since I heard it again I can’t get it
out of my head. And I’m so glad someone
as great as Chanel Cole will be singing it on the night.
The second song, ‘Old Devil Moon’, comes
from the 1947 musical Finian’s Rainbow. Burton Lane composed it, with lyrics by Yip
Harburg. I saw the musical as a kid in
New York before moving out to California.
My mother was friends with Ella Logan, the star, and her husband Freddie
Finkelstein who produced it, and we went backstage to meet them. Believe it or not, as a kid of six I could
sing every song in it, even getting my tiny lungs around ‘How are Things in
Gloccamorra’. But ‘Old Devil Moon’ is a
ballad, very powerful, very sexy, the one that everyone knew Sinatra sang about
Ava.
Woven Words is on 27 April at 7.30pm.
Writers Alex Miller and Alan Gould will also read their work, and Sara’s
artwork will grace the walls. The authors have chosen a mix of contemporary piano, funky jazz,
classical string works, and flamenco guitar to be performed by a quartet from
the Canberra Symphony
Orchestra. For
more to details or to purchase tickets you can visit the website here or
Facebook page here.
Wow, Sara, what a fabulous interview! And thanks very much for the mention.
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